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Опыт бразильского спирита
Rafael: Мне 32 лет и я встретил спиритизм в 1999. Сегодня, я - директор спиритического центра в моём городе. Есть 14 директоров и 7 областей в моём спиритическем центре. Он называется "вера, надежда и милосердие" (fé, esperança e caridade по-португальски) и ему 91 лет. Там, я координирую молодежную группу с двумя друзьями и я принадлежу к медиумическему группу.
Ответов - 40, стр:
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astral: И каковы цели вашего института?чего добились за годы работы?
Rafael: Наша главная цель - сделать человека добродетельный. Нет спиритов, нет спиритуалистов. Человека добродетельный. Спиритизм не делает прозелитисм. Другие цели - разглашение спиритизма, изучение спиритизма и деятельности милосердия.
Oleg63: Rafael пишет: Спиритизм не делает прозелитисм Перевод немного мне непонятный.
Андрей: Привет Rafael. Название хорошее: "вера, надежда и милосердие". Расскажи подробнее, чем вы занимаетесь? Как создавался этот центр, почему у вас в стране так развито спиритическое учение? Что мы, можем сделать для повышения значимости спиритического учения в нашей стране?
Rafael: Олег, прозелитисм = proselitismo согласно google translator => обращение в свою веру
Oleg63: Андрей пишет: Расскажи подробнее, чем вы занимаетесь? Как создавался этот центр, почему у вас в стране так развито спиритическое учение? Что мы, можем сделать для повышения значимости спиритического учения в нашей стране? Да, да, Рафаэль. Нам очень интересно. Расскажите поподробнее. Времени много, мы не торопим.
Rafael: Расскажи подробнее, чем вы занимаетесь? Мне трудно писать по-русски. Мы готовим спиритическии лагерь для молодых спиритов. Как создавался этот центр, почему у вас в стране так развито спиритическое учение? Наш центр в 1920 в 1990, в том же месте Бразилькая Спиритическая Федерация в 1884, когда Бразилия была империя. В то время, спиритизм был большой в Европе и в Россие. Так начались Первая мировая война и Вторая мировая война. Две войны разрушили многое, между нём был спиритизм Здесь в Бразилия, мы не смотрели войны, и спиритзм смог вырасти. Что мы, можем сделать для повышения значимости спиритического учения в нашей стране? Разговаривайте о повышение значимости спиритического учения в Россие в другой теме Конечно, я хочу помочь
backmont: Rafael, could you tell us what it exactly means to be a spiritist in Brazil? Are there any meetings of spiritists (once a week or so) or does every spiritist just read books sitting at his home? Do you hold seances (individual or group)? How do you find new people to make them familiar with the doctrine of spiritism?
Rafael: I think I can write about this week. Last Sunday, I went to another center prepare the annual spiritist event for youngsters. I will help by the second time in the study and in the choral. On wednesdays, we have our mediunic reunion. Last wednesday, before the mediunic seance, we finished our presentation for Thursday about the influence of the spirits in our lives. This Thursday, our presentation was a success On Fridays, we have a study group where we discuss our work with children (it's like a spiritism class for children, almost every spiritist centre has some) On saturdays, we have our youngster study group with about 20 boys and girsl from 13 years to 21 years old. Today the study was about reincarnation. (After the study they get out to pizza, i was a bit sick so I didnt go. ) Spiritism in Brazil is becoming a very natural thing. Nowadays, there are a lot of movies, books, soap-operas about spiritism. We're 3% of population. How do you find new people to make them familiar with the doctrine of spiritism? We do not look for newcomers. We explain to those that sincerely ask about. We invite some friends to meet our reunions if we think they would like. Some people find spiritism by themselves, because, as I said, spiritism is wellknown in Brazil.
backmont: Rafael, when you wrote about the mediunic seance or reunion, did you mean just a meeting of friends or did you mean the process of communication with spirits? (English is a bit ambiguous language.) Are there many mediums in Brazil who can summon the spirits?
Rafael: Ok. We have a mediunic group. Our reunions have three moments: discussion about the messages, study of The Mediums' Book, and the seanse Unfortunately, mediumship is not completely understood. And people yet have afraid of spirits. This behavior avoids that the good summoning. And all this occurs despite we read in the Mediums' Book. So, we frequently say: It's very very important studying Allan Kardec, nobody can say that knows everything about spiritism and we always have something more to learn. Finnaly, everyone can summon the spirits. However, there are many kinds of spirits and the good ones are present only in the serious seanses. The mediums' book 2nd part chapters 17-18-19 explains all of it.
backmont: Rafael, are the Spirits' Book and the Mediums' Book by Allan Kardec still the main books of every spiritist? It was almost 150 years ago when those books were written and published. Maybe some other books were written since that time, which replaced the original books of Kardec and which are used as handbooks nowadays? Also it's very interesting to know more about seances. What method do you use to get the messages from spirits? Psychography? What kind of messages do you receive from spirits?
Rafael: Yes, Spirits' Book and the Mediums' Book by Allan Kardec still the main books of every spiritist, And the Gospel according Spiritism, Heaven and Hell and The Genesis. Many books were written since then, some of them complement Kardec's work. Kardec said that if the science would prove that something is wrong in the spiritism, so spiritism must change in that point. Until today none was proved wrong, by the contrary, for example there is a lot of scientific research about reincarnation. Kardec used logics, experimentation, no preconceived ideas. A spiritual message by only one medium was rejected. The messages must be universal. Very few authors post Kardec used such methods. And about the seances, our reunion is mainly psychographic, we summon the dearest relatives to confort them and their yet alive relatives. Sometimes we summon our spiritual guide, present in every reunion, sometimes they manifest by themselves by psychography or psycophony. Some medium are clairvoyant. They certify us about the presence of some spirits near some medium. We always have the caution to never say anything about our dead relatives in order to not sugest the mediums. This is very difficult because we are all close friends. Our friendship is strong after the group
backmont: Rafael, when one reads the Spirits' Book (especially several times), he can notice some inconsistences or unclear places. Although all spiritual messages from only one medium was rejected, there are still some answers of spirits that look like contradictions. How do you resolve such contradictions in your group/center? Rafael wrote: Finnaly, everyone can summon the spirits. What if some person has read all of the Kardec's books, understood them, but he is still unable to summon spirits. He is trying, but they don't come. Can your center help such people to learn to summon spirits? Have you had such incidents?
Rafael: I know some unclear places. Tell me some of those contradiction and I can tell what we said about them. Someday, a friend of mine said that he had found a error. We all looked for and analyzed this error and discoverred that our friend didn't notice one comma. If there is no medium, no spirit communicates. Lack of concentration does not help also. Sometimes the summoned spirit has no permission to communicate. Yeah, we have a lot of such incidents. How do you try summoning? I think maybe our group could post some of our videos in youtube, I'll ask them.
backmont: Rafael wrote: I know some unclear places. Tell me some of those contradiction and I can tell what we said about them. I don't want to overload you with such questions right now, maybe later. There are other questions I'd like to ask you first. Actually I'd like to know whether your center is independent organization or it's a subdivision of some larger organization like Brazilian Spiritist Federation. When you find some unclear places in Kardec's books, do you try to explain them with only help of individuals of your center/group or are there some booklets issued by Brazilian Spiritist Federation that explain such unclear places so that all spiritists in Brazil interpret the doctrine of spiritism identically? Rafael wrote: If there is no medium, no spirit communicates. There is an opinion that anyone can be a medium. And if a person can't summon spirits, it just means that he is doing something wrong. What do you think about that? Rafael wrote: I think maybe our group could post some of our videos in youtube, I'll ask them. Oh, it would be really great to watch them! Please ask your group and let us know if it's possible.
Rafael: backmont пишет: There is an opinion that anyone can be a medium This is true. But there are many degrees of mediumship. Not everyone can sense the spirits more strongly to be called "medium". backmont пишет: Actually I'd like to know whether your center is independent organization or it's a subdivision of some larger organization like Brazilian Spiritist Federation Brazilian Spiritist Federation orientates but doesn't rule. Every center is kind of independent. Unfortunately, this permits that some people introduces beliefs and practices foreign to Spiritisme. The african religions in Brazil contribute to this misunderstanding backmont пишет: do you try to explain them with only help of individuals of your center/group or are there some booklets Spiritist literature is very large in Brazil. Like everything big, there are good things and bad things. But yes, there are not only booklets, there are real books explaining and discussing the most controversial points.
Ant: Rafael You say that in Brazil spiritirizm very developed, and so there are books like Kardec, composed of spirits of our response time?
Rafael: Ant пишет: You say that in Brazil spiritirizm very developed, and so there are books like Kardec, composed of spirits of our response time? I didn't understand your question
backmont: Rafael, you wrote that you had bought some books like "The Gospel According to Spiritism" translated into Russian by Spartak Severin. Do you have any idea why those books in Russian are selled in Brazil but not in Russia? Is there any way to buy them in Russia? I found the following site where all Kardec's books are available: http://www.edicei.com/br/public/livros/list/id/Russo I sent them e-mail (in English) with a question whether it's possible to deliver the books to Russia, but got no reply. Also I tried to contact with Spartak Severin on Facebook but he doesn't reply either. I'm not sure if I correctly understood Ant's question, but most likely he asks if there are modern books on spiritism in Brazil that were composed of answers, gotten from spirits nowadays, in the same way as Kardec's books in the past?
Rafael: backmont, I bought it, and two weeks ago I bought "Книга дихов" too, but I have problems with postal service here. I saw the Spirits' book in Hungarian here Remeber that Spartak Severin is not russian. He's belarussian. I don't know about Russia-Belarus relationship, but member of Internationall Spiritist Councill was in Belarus to present the books This video in portuguese, it's possible to see several books in Russian http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et3qu887WSg In this video, the man, Cesar Perri says that there is no spiritist movement in the countries of the former Soviet Union, and that in Minsk there is an older group. I know that russian is widely spoken in Belarus. I also think that the main reason for the russian translation instead of belarussian is the book can reach Russia too. But, do they know about Rassvet site? Do they know there are people in Russia insterested about spiritism? I know rassvet site for several years. I downloaded the spiritist books from there, I think, ten years ago. Why didn't they make contact? Shyness? I think the answers are: no, no, they didn't know. It looks to me that Spartak is the link with ISC. It seems to me also that there is almost no young people interested. They know how to use internet better to make contact. I know Oleg posted in a Brazilian forum. He doesnt know it, but this made me to post here.
Rafael: backmont, I bought it, and two weeks ago I bought "Книга дихов" too, but I have problems with postal service here. I saw the Spirits' book in Hungarian here Remeber that Spartak Severin is not russian. He's belarussian. I don't know about Russia-Belarus relationship, but member of Internationall Spiritist Councill was in Belarus to present the books This video in portuguese, it's possible to see several books in Russian http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et3qu887WSg In this video, the man, Cesar Perri says that there is no spiritist movement in the countries of the former Soviet Union, and that in Minsk there is an older group. I know that russian is widely spoken in Belarus. I also think that the main reason for the russian translation instead of belarussian is the book can reach Russia too. But, do they know about Rassvet site? Do they know there are people in Russia insterested about spiritism? I know rassvet site for several years. I downloaded the spiritist books from there, I think, ten years ago. Why didn't they make contact? Shyness?
backmont: Rafael, Oleg says that Spartak knows about the site Rassvet and this forum, and a person from Minsk group even wrote to the forum once. That's all. I think there is the same problem in Belarus as in Russia. There is no organization. Even book translators seem to be not interested in distributing their books in these countries. There's no way to buy a paper book even through Internet.
Rafael: backmont, that is the problem. I thought it would be easier if they wouldn't know us. Do you know as I found Oleg? I searched in Google "espiritismo russia" and found his post in a forum. I think there lack of enthusiasm about the new. He nicely wrote "Hello I'm form russia, we have a group here", and people merely say "wow, that's nice". There is also the other Rafael, my "xará" (brazilian portuguese to 'person with same name', from tupi 'xe ará' meaning 'my name'). He knows russian better than I, and he has a blog in Russian http://spiritizmvrossii.blogspot.com.br/. I've never talked with him, but maybe he can help us. I sent a message to International Spiritist Council about the books. I'm waiting for the answer.
backmont: Thanks for your help, Rafael. I'm looking forward to any news from you. Meanwhile, if you have enough time, can you write your thoughts about the following place in the Spirits' Book? In the Kardec's comments to point 188 we can read: According to the statements of spirits, the earth, as regards the physical and moral qualities of its inhabitants, is one of the least advanced of all the globes of our solar system. Mars is stated to be at a point even lower than that of the earth, and Jupiter to be greatly superior to the earth in every respect. Kardec claims that Mars is on the lower level than the Earth, so we should see material life on Mars. But nowadays we have many photos of the Mars surface and we don't see anything close to life there.
Rafael: Ok, this is the greatest point. Karced didn't affirm that Mars is on lower level and Jupiter is superior. He stated that, according to the spirits, Mars would be on lower level and Jupiter would be superior. The text in french says: Mars lui serait encore inférieur et Jupiter de beaucoup supérieur a tous égards. Note the conditional. I don't have the version in English, but both in Portuguese and in French the conditional is used. The main text of The Spirits' Book can be divided in four parts: Questions, Answers form the spirits, Comments of Kardec, those in the main body of text, and Notes of Kardec, that as footnote. That information falls in the last part. Kardec did not put it in the main body. I think that if he was sure about this, he would stated it there. But no, he wrote as footnoote using the conditional. I have checked both Russian (rassvet and severin) versions and I didn't note the conditional. But russian language is different, with aspects and so, I don't know how a russian speaker understands it Finnaly, of course Mars is boring, Jupiter is boring, Outside Earth, only Titan is interesting.
backmont: Rafael, thanks for your explanation. Your know, I just checked several translations into different languages and it turned out that in English and Russian versions those Kardec's words are in the comments inside the main text, but in the French and Portuguese versions they are in the footnote. That's odd. Maybe different translations were made from different editions of the original book? By the way, I downloaded an English translation from here: http://www.geae.inf.br/en/books/index.html And yes, there is no a conditional in Russian and English versions. There is an unconditional statement. And if I understood you correctly, you think that Kardec was unsure about those statements, so they might be wrong. I can accept that version. Actually I think that despite very careful selection of spirits' answers Kardec still could include some statements, that are not true.
Rafael: backmont, Spartak Severin version has this part as a footnote comment (a very big one, but yet a footnote) Yesterday, I was watching on Youtube a very good presentation about th philosophical aspect of spiritism. It states, among many things, that spiritist texts are not sacred and do not claim to be the absolute true, unlike all sacred religious texts claim to be. Spiritist texts claim to contain knowlegde, and acordding to philosophy, knowlegde must be justified (by means of logics and reason) and proved (by means of real facts). It is up to us to verify and reverify this knowlegde, and, as Kardec said, if it is wrong in some point, it must be changed in this point.
backmont: Rafael, in the first message I asked whether ordinary spiritists in Brazil have some weekly gatherings? In my opinion, if a person has read a book once, he tends to forget it with the lapse of time if he doesn't think of it again and again. Some periodic gatherings is a good opportunity to refresh the doctrine in memory and maybe even to figure out it more deeply. And gatherings could induce people to make their lives in accordance with the doctrine.
Rafael: backmont , I will answer you by listing the activities of my center. Sunday: 8:45 public study reunion 10:00 study groups Monday: 14:20 public study reunion 19:30 study groups Tuesday: study groups Wednesday: 19:00 study groups Thursday: 19:20 public study reunion 19:00 study groups 19:20 gospel classes for children Friday: 19:20 public study reunion 19:00 study groups Saturday: 15:30 study groups 15:30 gospel classes for children 17:00 spiritism class for teenagers We also have a library, a bookstore and theater group Some study groups are also mediunic, and all mediunic group must have a time for studying. I belong to 3 study groups. One mediunic, cald Leon Denis. The second helps the classes forchildren and teenagers, called Pestalozzi and the special group for older teenagers called Way of the Light.
backmont: Rafael, I remember you wrote that your center is oriented to the younger generation. But what about adults? Do they visit reunions and study groups holded by your center?
backmont: Rafael, can you write your point of view on the following question? According to spiritism, do plants have some kind of soul (spirit) like animals?
Rafael: backmont All but one of those study are for adults.
backmont: Rafael, did you ask your group about the possibility to share videos of your seances with us? Have you ever seen physical manifestations like the production of sounds, the movement and displacement of solid bodies, direct writing (pneumatography), etc?
Rafael: backmont There are so many things to discuss inside our group that I didn't have time for asking, sorry. backmont пишет: Have you ever seen physical manifestations like the production of sounds, the movement and displacement of solid bodies, direct writing (pneumatography), etc? Never. We do not expect physical effects.However we have received signs that this could happen in the future. They are useless to our aims: helping the beloved deceased relatives of people. Often some mediums feel pain int the same bodypart of the summonned spirit had when he was alive. I need to mention that the mediums are supposed to do not know anything about the summoned spirit.
backmont: Rafael, do you know if there are any other centers or groups in Brazil or any other country nowadays where spiritists can get messages from higher spirits?
Наталья: backmont в Бразилии много групп, и у нас небольшая группа в Беларуси. мы работаем по аналогии с тем, как работали в Бразилии. не ищем физических эффектов. цель - помочь конкретному человеку с его проблемой, чаще всего связанной с физическим здоровьем. а во многих случаях причина болезни неизвестна, для этого и нужна ИХ помощь.
backmont: Наталья, это хорошо, что в Беларуси есть ваша группа. Однако мне не совсем понятно, зачем нужно просить духов помочь со здоровьем и спрашивать их о причинах той или иной болезни. Обычно люди, когда болеют, обращаются в клиники и лечатся традиционными средствами. Если эти средства не помогают, люди начинают пробовать нетрадиционные методы - обращаться к экстрасенсам и целителям. Они цепляются за жизнь любыми способами, полагая, что после смерти ничего нет. Разве не было бы логичным объяснить им в соответствии с учением о спиритизме, что нет смысла держаться за эту жизнь, и что со смертью тела жизнь не заканчивается. И если пришло время умереть от болезни, нужно смириться с этим. Ведь в конечном счете переход от жизни в теле к жизни в духе есть особождение духа от тягот земной жизни, своего рода облегчение для духа. И наоборот нужно радоваться такой возможности.
Rafael: backmont, Physical body and health are tightly related to spiritual body and health. It is known that some diseases have spiritual causes and modern science cannot discover its origin. Many mental disorders have mediunic/obsession causes. And yes, people must go to the doctor and trust in medicine in order to have a cure. However, spiritist doctrine can help, comforting and explaining the reason for our pain. And about the life, it is the way we have to evolve ourselves, and every form to extend it is valid. It is the Law of Conservation. Most of people that arrive at spiritist center, do it because they suffer. Most of those few people that want to see physical effects go away once they see what they want. PS: I found some videos in Youtube in english, if you want them, I can post the links here
backmont: Rafael, yes, post them please.
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